Why buy this rather than the latest ‘The Only Kids Worship Album You’ll Need EVER (volume 105)’? Well, if you’ve got the cash, buy both, but if you’re having to choose, ‘Mission to Dendros’ offers not only kids worship songs, but also songs that deal with subjects that perhaps traditional kids songs don’t. I’m a big believer in using songs to disciple children and to do that effectively we’ve not only got to sing about the big bible themes, but also how the gospel impacts the nitty gritty of life. So there are songs dealing with worry, sadness and loss, as well as those big bopping bouncy bible theme songs that underpin it all. And there’s Mr Grumpy. And lots of jokes.

You’ve worked on some significant albums and tours that are for ‘grown-up’s. How did you get into writing and performing for children and families – and what’s kept you going?

I’ve always loved working with children and in fact ‘Inspector Smart’ (who’s on the first couple of family albums) was a creation of my 17 year old self. It really got going though in 2013 when I ran a Bible holiday club and wrote a few songs, as well as developing the Inspector Smart character. From there we wrote a whole album, and then another… and another… and now another! Over the years I’ve grown the team involved so I now co-write with Tim Chester. James Cary (BBC comedy writer) has come on board to write the drama side of things and we’ve even got a 14x Grammy Award winner playing banjo! (Ron Block, if you’re wondering)

The songs keep on coming because my kids still need discipling! (I have 3 children) Many of my songs come from discipleship moments with my kids, or my own heart. Songs stick, so I write songs to help embed the truths we need to learn in those moments. I love sharing those songs with others as they seem to help other families in their discipleship.

How as parents can we use song in our family’s discipleship?

Get to know the songs your kids are listening to and get to know your kids! (I’m guessing the second part is already well under way) Before I started writing family songs our kids listened to a lot of Colin Buchanan and there were many moments where we were talking through issues and we’d say ‘remember that song by Colin? That’s about this…’ Now I write songs to make sure we can have many more of those moments.

One of my favourite moments didn’t actually involve me in the discipling. My eldest was worrying (again) but this time about her own sin. My wife was sitting with her, listening, talking, praying. Then my 5 year old toddled in and whispered to his mum ‘tell her – as far as the east is from the west…’ (a line from one of my new songs as well as Psalm 103:12!)

And that’s how it’s done. Help kids make a connection between the truths that have been embedded in their hearts through song and their everyday lives and struggles.

You’ve said you have a ‘passion for dealing with the difficult things of life for kids’. Can you unpack that and show what that looks like in your music?

It looks like (or sounds like) finding out what are the particular struggles of kids, seeing how the Bible speaks to those struggles and then singing about it! The thing is, when you start to do this, you realise the things kids struggle with are the things that adults struggle with. The difference is that kids often don’t have the words to articulate and therefore understand their struggles, whereas adults are better at hiding their struggles.

Songs are helpful here because they help expose what’s really going on underneath (and so they keep adults honest) and they give us the words needed to help understand and deal with those struggles. I think that’s what the Psalms do. David lets us into some really personal issues in his life. In doing so he invites us on the journey he has travelled – one that starts with honest examination of the heart, through to repentance and finding the only place of safety, in the hands of the true King.

That’s what I want to do with my songs. I want to be honest and real about the struggles of life that kids go through too (using language and ideas that they can relate to). I want to invite them to see their own issues and take them to the foot of the Saviour where they can find life and rest.

Tell us about your Family Show. What does it involve, who is it aimed at and how would a church go about exploring bringing it to their area?

The Family Shows are about 1 hour and full of songs, fun and Jesus. We go on an adventure discovering more about the wonderful gospel. Along the way we meet some crazy characters like the absent minded Archibald the Explorer and the ever-grouchy Mr Grumpy. People often ask what age-group it’s for and I say 0-99 – as long as you’re willing to have fun there’s something for everyone. In fact there was a lady in her 90’s at a recent show and she came over to say how pleased she was that she came! One thing I’m keen to do is make it engaging for the adults who bring the kids too. So there are jokes and musical genres that they’ll appreciate too. And everyone gets to hear about Jesus – so win-win!

If people would like to book a show they can get in touch via my website michaeljtinker.com/contact and I’d love to chat about making it happen!

If people want to order they can go to michaeljtinker.com/shop. It’ll be available on iTunes etc, but obviously through the website is best!!

Tim Chester is a pastor at Grace Church, Boroughbridge in North Yorkshire. He is also a faculty member of Crosslands Training; and is the author of over 30 books, a number of which have been really significant in my own formation: Total Church, Everyday Church, You Can Change… When I heard about the vision behind Tim’s new book, Enjoying God, I was really keen to hear more…

– Tim, you’re probably one of the most prolific British Christian authors around. And yet I’ve heard you say this particular book might be your most important. Can you tell us a bit about Enjoying God – and why you feel that way about it?

Well, the word ‘might’ is significant because it’s not really for me to judge. But I hope the book says something fresh that can really make a different to our relationship with God. We talk a lot about enjoying God. If someone is struggling with temptation or bitterness or longing or emptiness then we call them to find joy in Christ. Rightly so. But what are we do to do with this exhortation? It makes a fine climax to a sermon, but what I am supposed to do next? Is joy an act of the will or even an act of make believe? What I’m trying do in the book is help Christians have a strong sense of living in relationship with God in the everyday stuff of life. The central ideas are not novel. To be honest, I’ve nicked them from the Puritan John Owen. But they’re not often talked about today and think they have the potential to make a powerful difference in people’s lives.

– Bible-believing Christians will often say that the gospel has brought us into a ‘right relationship with God’ – and yet you point out that we’re not very good at talking about what that relationship looks like in everyday life. Why do you think that is?

The central idea of the book is that a vital step in enjoying God is to think about how God the Father is relating to us and how we can respond, how the Son is relating to us and how we can respond, and how the Spirit is relating to us and how we can respond. This is what the book then tries to do. The reason this is important is because it’s hard to relate to God as a generic entity. Christian theology has always said we can’t know God’s essence. As it happens, I’m writing this in Hong Kong airport on my way home from a conference in Australia. On the plane I’ve been reading a book on the attributes of God in which lines up a series of theologians across the centuries who are all making precisely this point. We have nothing in our experience that enables us to have any sense of the ‘godness’ of God. But – here’s the good news – we can know the persons of God. The Father, Sons and Spirit exist in an personal relationship of joy and in Christ we are able to enjoy that relationship by relating to the persons of God. This is Owen’s big idea in his book Communion with God. It’s heavy duty theology, but it cashes out in a very simple principle: think about how the Father, Son and Spirit are each relating to you and how you can respond. That’s a long-winded way of answering your question. What it boils down to is people find it hard to relate to God when they’re relating to him as a generic entity – a being beyond comprehension.

– In Enjoying God, you underline the importance of relating to God as Father, Son, and Spirit – rather than just ‘God’. How do we know ‘who to relate to when’ – and what might you say to someone who is who feels this is ’splitting up’ the Triune God? 

Good question. Having just stressed the three-ness of God, let me now stress the one-ness of God. The three persons are one being so to relate to one is to relate to them all. In other words, as soon as you think about relating to the Father you inevitably start thinking about how we relate to the Father because we are ‘in’ the Son. That means our experience of God is the experience of the Son – that is, the love of a Father. Moreover, God sent the Spirit to enable us to cry ‘Abba, Father’. As a result, the objective reality of being a child of God becomes a subjective experience in our lives. All this means that by thinking about their distinctive roles, you find yourself actually connecting with the one triune God.

– At the end of each chapter, you include an ‘action point’, as well as ‘discussion questions’. It struck me that Christian books will often have discussion questions – but what made you include an ‘action point’?

It’s something I did in my book You Can Change and many people have told me how helpful they found it. I really, really want Enjoying God to help people see how God is at work in their lives day by day in all the nitty gritty of life. When many people think about experiencing God they think of an emotional experience in corporate worship or perhaps hearing God speak in some way a voice. Often people don’t really experience either these very much and so God feels rather distant to them. What I want to show people is that the triune God is intimately at work in our lives in many different ways all the time. Our experience of God is much bigger and richer and fuller than those kind of moments. I want to use the Scriptures to open the eyes of our faith to see God’s involvement in our daily lives.

– You say that one of the principles underlying your book is understanding the difference between our union with God and our communion with God. Can you unpack this further and show us why we need to understand both?

Again, this is something John Owen says. I don’t want to get hung up on the terminology, but the distinction is really important. Union with God in Christ is all God’s work from start to finish. That means our relationship with God is something we not achieve, nor something we can ruin. It’s all of grace. This is the foundation of our relationship with God. Communion with God describes the two-way relationship into which we’ve been saved. What we do really does make a difference to our experience of God. This gives us a great incentive to see God at work, listen for his voice in his word and pursue him in prayer. But all the time we have the great assurance that our relationship rests secure on his grace.

– I’ve heard a few people say recently that in our post-Christian culture the church needs to have a ‘thick’ spirituality that embodies our faith. How important is it that Christians in a post-Christian society are actively ‘enjoying God’?

Well I’m not sure how to quantify the importance. What units of measurement did you have in mind? But I do think it’s important. It’s important for us if we’re to survive in the face of increasing hostility and scepticism. And it’s important of the watching world. People often don’t want to engage at the level of what is true. But they are looking for something. Our culture is, as the philosopher Charles Taylor says, still haunted by transcendence. A deep sense of the triune God’s involvement in our lives, together with the joy this brings, has the potential to be a powerful apologetic for the gospel.

You can download the first chapter of Enjoying God for free here, or pick up a copy of the book from the publisher here.